Is it ethical to teach children right from wrong with fear?

[Wacky the Taccoon]

So, yeah. In your own personal opinion, is it right for parents/guardians to teach their children how to behave through fear tactics? And no, not fear of having their toys taken away, but fear of facing more physical punishment. Think more along the lines of spanking with a stick or belt, as well as literally washing their mouth out with soap, or locking them in a small room. Not to the point of abuse though, abusing a child is wrong no matter what the circumstances.

Obviously everyone has been raised differently and that may affect their judgement. Therefor if you do not agree with someones opinion then please do not get angry or flame them or anything else that is going to get you into trouble.

Basically I'm just wondering how you guys would teach your children right from wrong, if you ever have any. Personally I do not believe in spanking children or anything like that. I had punishments like that growing up and although it did keep me out of trouble it made me form an irrational fear of them to the point of being afraid to so much as ask for a snack.

[Enzo03]

Funny how so many of the people who are against spanking have never had kids of their own :)

And, well, yeah, I grew up being spanked. I won't say I grew up fine, but I blame the problems I had growing up with other experiences which I think I've talked about them before, and most agreed they were pretty ****** up.

[Wacky the Taccoon]

I know I haven't had kids, and because of that I do not really know what it's like or what is the best way to teach them. But I'm more interested in how people were raised affects their viewpoints on stuff like this than how they actually plan to teach their future children. :)

[Ivogoji]

Physically punishing children just seems like the laziest means of installing discipline. I'm sure there are better methods. Not that I can think of any right now.

Personally, I was never punished at all as a child. Cuz I never did anything wrong. I can only pray my kids will be that smart.

[Enzo03]

I don't think I could possibly know enough about this until I'm a parent, despite what I've said in the edited version of my post. I grew up an only child and never really had many friends thanks to being picked on a lot among other things, so I can't base it off of direct observations other than what has happened to me. Too much stuff in the way for anyone to come to accurate conclusions on how I was raised based on my behavior.
For example, I often get very, very pissed off. I will try to break things to make me feel better. I almost never want to hurt anyone (except in an online game), but I love tearing **** up when I'm angry. I was also spanked as a child. What do people, especially those against spanking, conclude?
Pretty obviously - I have anger issues from my parents "resorting to violence" in punishing me. Duh. Never mind the things that actually made me feel like the world was out to get me.

Most annoying was a very recent time I was told that my thoughts about my life experiences were wrong. That time, I did want to do grievous bodily harm to that guy. It would be fun.

I will say that every Sunday in church (hue hua I'm religious that means I'm stupid) I notice these kids who will not sit or stand still, the oldest has to be at least some 12 or 13 years old. The 13 year old girl constantly sways back and forth, always twisting side to side and it is ****** annoying. They have no manners. Whenever the mother tells them to stop, the kids don't care. Only occasionally does the father do anything about it and only occasionally do they even listen to him. They have no control over them. I'm not going to say "oh, it's because they weren't spanked" or something like that, but I do blame the parents and wonder what kind of parenting rears kids like that.

[Enzo03]

Physically punishing children just seems like the laziest means of installing discipline. I'm sure there are better methods. Not that I can think of any right now.

Try to imagine taking a paddle and preparing to swat a child. Any child. Okay? Good. Now imagine it's your child, and they haven't done anything wrong. Okay? Good. Now imagine you're trying to do it, just once. How do you feel? Multiply the feeling by 100 times however many times you will be spanking your hypothetical child. How does that feel? You have a slight, yet insignificant approximation of the pain a spanking parent feels, assuming they're a normal parent.

Nonono. The laziest means of installing discipline is putting the kid on a pill to keep them settled down. Have them take the pill with chocolate/strawberry milk or their favorite fruit juice or Kool-Aid or something sweet that they enjoy. They usually behave, don't fear you, and there's no (at least immediate) remorse and/or other emotional and/or psychological pain...

...these pills, I believe, are the absolute worst and laziest form of parenting.

...well, that is next to doing nothing at all, which is only a small step down from giving them a chillax pill.

[Sable]

no.
end.

[cinnamonstyx]

i really don't know.

spanking isn't disgusting or evil in any way if it's used sparingly and not to roughly, but 'fear = discipline'?
i can't say i really condone that.
teaching = discipline sounds better, and if negative reinforcement is included in that, then so be it. generations upon generations grew up with that, negative reinforcement, rapped hands and red behinds, and they weren't particularly any worse than us; just different.

but i really don't know. if some one can more eloquently and factually defend their opinion, i might be inclined to agree on this subject, because quite frankly, people's individual experiences vary too massively on this subject for it to have a definitive 'yes' or 'no', and i'm not wise enough on the subject to have too much of a valid opinion.
but i think of "hitting or emotionally abusing your child whenever they do something wrong and instilling fear of you into them" as a really terrible form of parenting.

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

Corporal punishment, in general, strikes me as barbaric, but considering how complicated human behavior and how different individuals react to different stimuli, I am willing to admit that there are probably circumstances where such punishment is the only viable option for achieving the desired result. That said, I believe that it is more important to encourage desired behavor than to discourage undesired behavor, and that overuse of any form of punishment can lead to a child being unwilling to express themselves for fear that any new behavior will be met with unpleasant consequences. I also think it important to teach children to consider how their actions affect others, and that often times, the best punishment is feeling remorse for harming another.

@Ivogoji: A parent who strikes a child as a gut reaction to the child doing something to irritate the parent and then failing to provide any follow-up, is guilty of lazy parenting, but I cannot say I would call a parent who uses spanking as part of a more complete discipline regiment as likewise lazy.

@Enzo: If the typical parent felt that much remorse at the prospect of spanking their child, I doubt it would have become a socially acceptable means of disciplining children. That said, I will agree that drugging a child into submission is a very lazy and ignorant means of avoiding having to actually be a parent, and is probably more popular among lazy parents who feel significant remorse at the prospect of delivering corporal punishment. Still, for those who lack such remorse, spanking is a lot lazier than attempting to learn about an individual child's thought processes and learning how to best respond to them. As for the children you mentioned who refused to set still: what you see as parents being incapable or unwilling to control their children, I see as a possible example of kinesthetic learners forced into a non-kinesthetic environment. Not sitting still is by no means bad behavior, and for a child who learns best by doing and being active, forcing them into situations where they are forced to be still for extended periods of time does them no favors. Of course, as I am no expert on human behavior and am working with third-hand information, I cannot draw any solid conclusions about these children, but I am able to mention at least this one alternate possiblityy. Speaking more in general, I believe that ADD and ADHD are common misdiagnoses for children who simply are not in the most appropriate environment for them to learn and grow, whether it be due to incompatiblities in learning and teaching style or simply being place in classes that are at the wrong level.

[Aruesso]

uhh, i personally wouldn't, considering i kind of don't like hurting people in general

and my dad used to hit me (including a painful memory that kind of sticks to me) and being generally intimidating to me and other people i've even liked a little bit
i kind of resent him for that

which is why i'm really disconnected and i'm pretty sure that's unhealthy
along with me just being withdrawn in general, but still

it's not really good

[Coty]

Yes, I was spanked, I see no problem with it, it kept me out of allot of trouble and made me think about every action I made, and even now even though I'm almost 20, it has evolved to a point that it makes me consider the consequences or my actions. Not because i'm afraid my dad will kick my ass, but because he did.

However, I do not believe it is always the best thing. Spanking with steady verbal discouragement is the way I see best... Mostly verbal discouragement resorting to spanking, for my siblings verbal worked best most of the time, I can only remember them actually being spanked a few times, between the two of them I can count them all on my hands... Our parents always had a rather "warning shot" kind of approach, if you didn't listen, well then your your ass would...

Like enzo, I also have anger issues, however I do not tie them to spanking, it was often my unreasonable anger issues, strong will, and rather rebellious attitude that lead to me being spanked. I actually tie my anger issue to my moms dad, who I take after in allot of ways, same height, build, interests (for the most part) eye color, anger issue (That he has now controlled for many years now), ect.

[Triert]

I believe so, unless there is a better method other than fear to use that someone can elaborate on.

[Enzo03]

@Jeremy:
Today the kids very audibly talked back to their mother, not sure what happened after this because I noticed it on my way to the bathroom. I don't believe that not sitting/standing still in and of itself is inherently bad, but it can often be inappropriate.

Like in church, when I'm trying to listen to the Homily and there's something squirming and writhing in the corner of my eye. I don't believe there is an unwillingness to discipline or parent since there's obviously an effort, but it's not doing anything.

The emotional pain/remorse at spanking probably isn't best represented by anything I could say since I don't know what it actually feels like to be on the *other* end of the paddle (or hand, for that matter). I think it's a parent thing to tell the truth. And in addition to that, you cannot put a mathematical equation on emotion in and of itself. Well, you can, but you'll be wrong.

I agree a lot with the ADD/ADHD part. Of course not for all cases of ADD/ADHD, since I probably have ADD, but I've met some very, very "normal" people (for lack of a better term) who are diagnosed with this kind of stuff.

[naruto_chao]

Physical punishment is something i grew up with, and while i dont think its bad, its best to use it in moderation, as america (and probably everywhere else) thrives on double standards and makes people feel (or actually be) inferior due to sex, race, etc.

[Jeffery Mewtamer]

@Enzo: I will agree that it is difficult to describe or measure an emotion, and even those who undergo the same external stimuli are likely to have different emotional responses and be incapable of understanding those who responded differently. For example, in the same situation, I probably would not even have notice the children you mentioned, though I can understand how annoying it can be to have such distractions. That said, I think if fair to say that most people behave differently when acting on emotional impulse compared to when they actually think things though before acting. As a result, I think that Emotional Intelligence, which includes the ability to control one's own emotions, understand the emotions of those around them, and using this to desired effect, is just as importan, perhaps moreso, in raising a child as it is in raising though the ranks in the workplace or being an effective leader.

On a related note, I was diagnosed as ADD or ADHD as a child and drugged for it(I have at various times been on Ritalin, Adderall, and Klinedine(sp?)), which I have long since come to realize was a misdiagnoses. I even came close to cussing out the school psychologist in high school for trying to deliver a diagnosis of Adult ADD. I often have trouble paying attention when the material presented is boring, something I have already heard many times, something beyond my understanding, or something I do not care about, and this often includes things I am expected to pay attention to, but quite honestly, who doesn't have troubable staying focus in such situations? Now, if it is something that interests me and is at the right level to expand my mind without leaving me confused, I tend to develope an unbreakable focus that lasts for hours. I also have this quirk, where if I am listening to a lecture and there is no visual information to process, I tend to close my eyes and prop my head up on my hands or lay my head on the desk in front of me, giving the appearance that I have dosed off when in reality I have just closed off irrelevant sensory imput to better focus on what is being said.

I was spanked as a child(though my older sister claims I never got enough, as I had far fewer than her or our older brother, but then again, I was not the hellraiser she was), my dad used his bare palm and my mom used a thick leather belt, but I honestly fail to see where I benefitted from any of it. My parents were very permissive with me during my teenage years, though that might have been due to me only being home during weekends and holidays I lived on-campus for most of my k-12 education(I attended the Governor Morehead School for the Blind from Grades 4-12, and due to its service area being all of North Carolina, most of the students lived in dormitories and went home every weekend). Dormitory life at GMS was harsh and only got worse as time went on. Corporal punishment was not allowed, and some of the punishments handed out were actually desirable*, but the students had little privacy and essentially no freedom of movement, even seniors over the age of 18 were never outside of earshot of a faculty or staff member for more than a few minutes without someone calling campus security to find them, and leaving campus without a chaperone was impermissble, and if you wanted to spend a quiet evening in your dorm room, you better hope the student activities department was not holding a social at the rec center of gym because chance are, even if most of the dorm does not want to go, the whole dorm would be forced to go.

*For example, there has been at least one case where, in response to an outburst about being forced against my will to attend one of the above mentioned socials, I was not allowed to leave my dorm room except to go to class, the dining hall, or the study center, effectively giving me what I wanted.

I do have some anger issues. I tend to take my frustrations in stride and when they build up considerably, it tends to be something truly insignificant that sets me off. That said, I noticed a severe decline in the frequency of my outburst during my first year of college compared to highschool, a decline I attribute to no longer living with the constant stress caused by living in the dorms at GMS.

Speaking of double standards, I am pretty sure that what qualifies as legally and socially acceptable corporal punishment in the US if performed by a parent on a young child is sufficient to could as assault if performed by one adult against another where the victim makes no effort to defend themselves. At least, by standards in parts of the US. Just thought I would put that out there.

[Gondi]

Not trying to offend anybody here, but isn't saying "you're going to go to hell if you don't follow these rules" teaching people through fear?

[Tobi]

Teaching children through the use of fear is irresponsible. You're basically finding a quick way out to have them listen to you. You're not really earning respect. I would want my children to respect me, not to fear me. Of course there still needs to be discipline, or else I wouldn't be a father, I'd be a friend.

Not trying to offend anybody here, but isn't saying "you're going to go to hell if you don't follow these rules" teaching people through fear?

Basically this. You're not only teaching through fear, but you're also forcing your religion upon your child.
Lying about Santa Claus is I guess acceptable...?

[Fandral]

I think there's a difference between fear of pain and fear of other concepts, people, etc that wasn't really clarified here.

Young children lack the ability to think through their actions into what they may cause for themselves or others, future or present. They need to be presented with immediate consequences after they do something wrong, and that's where spanking comes into play. They begin to relate "bad" actions to the pain and stop doing them out of fear that the pain may come lest they do it again, similar to Ivan Pavlov's Dog Food/Bell experiment. (Dog hears bell and food appears; dog drools because food is there. After a while, the dog begins drooling at only the sound of the bell, as it subconsciously believes that food is being presented)

Eventually children grow into their young adolescence and can comprehend that their actions have larger consequences than previously believed, moving from a desire to avoid pain to a desire to fit in, impress people, and other social BS (all VERY NATURAL behaviors for such social creatures as humans are). The spanking was just the rough framework of a large self-preserving bridge.

If it's fear of a concept, people, or anything similar it is the dumbest thing anyone could ever do. They are literally tainting a hateless mind with prejudice and ignorance, and it's disgusting.

Physical punishment in excess can have also nasty repercussions on the child's personality throughout his or her whole life.

[Chaolin112]

I've been spanked a little bit and I can't say it was bad or anything. If I had to be punished that'd be one of the ways as most other things didn't really work for me (gosh I'm so stubborn :3)

I don't think it's right to teach children to have discipline by using fear though. Fear is never good, not mentally and not physically.