Gay marriage now completely legalized in the United States

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Re: Gay marriage now completely legalized in the United Stat

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

The SCOTUS is supposed to be unbias and make decisions based purely on matters of Constitutionality, but it's unreasonable to think that the Justices never allow their personal biases to influence their decisions. Also, there were more than two possible outcomes: In addition to the definitive "yes the constitution protects same-sex marriage" and the definitive "No, the Constitution doesn't protect same-sex marriage" you imply as the only other possible outcome, The SCOTUS could've also ruled that the Constitution doesn't say one way or the other, that the Constitution declares it a state issue, or they could've refused to rule on the issue altogether. Honestly, I was surprised they even agreed to make a ruling, much more that they made a definitive ruling.

Also, while I'll agree that history has shown that the US Federal Government often does the right thing eventually, often with some of the less progressive states kicking and screaming in protest, history has also shown that it's generally slow to act.

Let's look at African-American and Women's Rights briefly:
African-American:
1776: Thomas Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence, "All men are created equal" and included it in a list of "self-evident truths".
1791: The US Constitution is Ratified. Two compromises included are that only 3/5ths of a State's slave population is counted for Representation purposes, and no law restricting the slave trade may be passed prior to 1807.
1807: Importation of slaves is outlawed, but the domestic slave trade remains healthy.
1860s: The Civil War is fought over Federal Supremacy vs. State Autonomy with slavery as a hot button issue. Federal Supremacy wins and slavery is abolished, but abolition is so poorly executed that large numbers of former slaves starve to death due to losing the only livelihood they've ever known.
1870: Amendment 15 gives Black men the vote, but other measures are used to block blacks in many jurisdictions for nearly a century.
1896: SCOTUS upholds segregation of American Public Schools.
1954: SCOTUS overturns 1896 decision.
1960s: The Civil Rights Movement. Many laws designed to subjugate African-americans are struck down.
1964: Amendment 24 outlaws poll taxes for Federal elections.
Present Day: True Racial equality is still a ways off. Many law enforcement agencies are still guilty of racial profiling even if it's unintentional, and the mainstream media often turns any incident of a white person wronging a black person into a race debate.
Women's Rights:
1791: Ratification of US Constitution. To my knowledge, it says nothing of important about women, though only men can vote or hold public office.
1792: Mary Wollstonecraft's A Vindication on the Rights of Woman.
1848: The Declaration of Sentiments, a feminist manifesto written in the style of the Declaration of Independence. Replaces "all men are created equal" with "all men and women are created equal".
1920: Amendment 19 gives Women the vote.
1948: Eleanor Roosevelt is a major contributor to The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, whose first Article states "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights."
Present day: Equality of the sexes is still a ways off. There is stil significant discrepancy in average pay that favors men. The mainstream media has a habit of turning any incident of a man wronging a woman into a battle of the sexes.

As for Youth Rights: when has wanting to extend voting rights to young Teenagers ever been considered seriously? It was only in 1971 that Amendment 26 gave 18 and 19-year-olds(and 20-year-olds, but they don't count as Teenagers) the vote and under 18s comprise the largest group of disenfranchised Americans(~25% of the Population according to the 2010 census). In fact, I can't think of any other victory for Youth Rights that has occurred that didn't portray youths as vulnerable and in need of protection, and Ageism is one of the few types of discrimination one can still be blatantly obvious about without risk of reprisal. Seriously, the age restrictions on holding federal office haven't changed since the Constitution was ratified in 1792, The "Old enough to go to war, old enough to smoke, but not old enough to vote or drink" argument didn't get the drinking age lowered to 18, There are severe restrictions on employment of under 18s regardless of ability, Most content labeling systems have an Age-Rating as their most visible component and some lack any details beyond the recommended age, comparing K-12 schools to minimum security prisons isn't exactly uncommon, and the list goes on.

All that said, I'm not surprised something like this happened. I'm just surprised it happened this soon. I expected to be closer to 82 than 28 when Same-sex marriage finally got Nationwide recognition.
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Re: Gay marriage now completely legalized in the United Stat

Post by Enzo03 »

I'm totally shocked! After all, we haven't been seeing those bigoted ****wit pastors setting themselves on fire yet!
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Re: Gay marriage now completely legalized in the United Stat

Post by Marnex »

I disagree with it. Yes, I know this post will net me many angry responses.

Look, even though I am a Christian and it goes against my worldview, I honestly don't give a damn what gay people want to do. I guess marriage is the only thing that somewhat bothers me because in my belief God was the one that instituted marriage between a man and a woman. Besides, I also see marriage as something silly and something that doesn't hold much meaning anymore because humans have diluted it (just look at divorce rates) and I don't understand why it was number one priority for gays. They could already f*** and live in the same house and practically be "married" already? Why does a piece of legal paper saying you are married need to further validate your love? It's redundant and provides no further benefit other than "I demand my RIGHTS!" (I, and many others that already have, can argue incessantly about how marriage actually detracts and has negative effects on relationships) It's the obsession of this facebook/twitter/tumblr/reddit generation that every single detail must be out in the open. Everyone absolutely needs to know how much of a special snowflake they are. I'm tired of all the gender terms and garbage that has come out of tumblr. Absolutely tired of it springing up everywhere I go.

But that is all besides the point, that isn't really my argument at all. Gay people can get married. That's great. I've moved on. I am, however, concerned about what is going to happen in the future due to this. This only empowers ridiculous social justice warriors and their "progressive" mentality to give rights to everything and anything and incinerate anything that even remotely offends. What's next? Rights for pedophiles and animalxhuman marriage rights? I mean, how could us filthy ciscum oppressors possibly come between the rights of a consensual loving couple between a Goddamn 50 year old man and a 9 year old girl? Or the love between Maxwell the dog and 20 year old Mrs Catherine the florist? It's love! (yeah yeah, I realize this is straw-man/fallacy/blahblah passing off as satire I just think it's funny, okay?) My point is that you give these people an inch and they take a whole yard. They will always have an agenda to find.

An example about them taking a yard: I have recently been hearing claims popping up over pastors being sued for not wanting to marry gay couples (source: http://bfy.tw/cdq). I guess this has been happening for a while but now that it's nationwide it'll become more of an issue. I mean, now that all states support it, some schools that wanted to force children into learning about homosexuality a couple years ago in some schools like in California and so forth want to expand and do so in every school. I see countless of gays and white knights on facebook/twitter/tumblr supporting this stuff. Seriously? Should Churches be forced to marry gay couples and kids in school be forced? Why? You're taking away rights for the sake of...rights? Is this simply for revenge? Why can't gay couples simply find a church that willingly wants to marry them instead of spitefully suing those that don't? It's incredibly hypocritical ass-backwards mentality and childish. It amounts to nothing but parading around going "haha, look at all the RIGHTS I've gained now!" What happened to the separation between church and state (true it wasn't put that way in the Constitution, but the concept is still used)? Oh right that's only applicable and brought up when Christians want to bring/institutionalize religion into laws, school, or other things (which I completely disagree with and am against with by the way, no one should force any such beliefs on anyone basically). Convenient.

Tl;dr I don't really actually care what gays do. They are people and they should do what they want as human beings. They can get married now. Cool, I don't necessarily agree with it, but I get it and that's the way it's going to be so whatever. I'm simply concerned about how much of this "progressive" movement will erode and taint everything. We already have countless extreme feminists and liberals poisoning video games demanding diversity at every turn and asking for anything even remotely offensive to be censored to the nth degree. I'm not worried about the homosexuals that genuinely love each other and want to marry moreso than I am about the toxic morons with ideologies that will use gay marriage rights as nothing but a stepping stool to further advance their own twisted progressive bulls*** agendas. In the end I hope I'm wrong about how things will pan out in the future. We'll see, but maybe it will be too late by then.

Anyway, go ahead and call me an idiot or whatever. Maybe I deserve it :(
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Re: Gay marriage now completely legalized in the United Stat

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

^Much of your post reads like an incoherent rant, but I think I somewhat agree with you on some points. The way I see it, marriages can be divided into 3 broad categories based on recognition: personal marriage, legal marriage, and religious marriage. A personal marriage needs no recognition beyond the spouses themselves, a legal marriage is one recognized by the government, and a religious marriage is one recognized by a religious organization. Sadly, most people don't understand these distinctions and legal marriage and religious marriage get conflated with one-another in most peoples minds despite the first amendment making it pretty damn clear that religion and law aren't supposed to influence each other.

Let me make this clear: by my interpretation of the US Constitution, the law should have no authority to dictate how religious organizations conduct religious marriages or which marriages a religious organization recognizes, and religious dogma should not influence how the government decides to conduct legal marriages or which marriages the government chooses to recognize.

So if your a gay Christian couple wanting a religious marriage, and your local church won't marry gay couples, that church isn't the right church for you, and considering that acceptance by the congregation is the primary benefit of a religious marriage, suing said church into recognizing your marriage isn't going to grant the benefits you'd find by joining a church that genuinely accepts homosexuals. At the same time, the Pastors of said church shouldn't have any legal ground to protest against the local courthouse issuing you a marriage license.

Granted, I find it baffling that anyone would want to be Christian when they fall into a category condemned by mainstream Christianity.

As for the slippery slope you mention, among the examples you give, at least one would require lowering the minimum age for signing legal contracts and another wouldrequire granting the ability to sign legal contracts to non-humans. That is, of course, assuming we're talking legal marriages. Interesting aside, the Bible features a few examples of marriages that would be considered pedophilic by modern standards and one of the stories that is most commonly cited when condemning homosexuality can be interpreted as, if not condoning pedophilia, at least declaring it a lesser evil than homosexuality(hint: Lot's Daughters were likely prepubescent when Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed).

As for divorce, while I think there are cases where divorce is the best option, and I don't consider the concept of divorce itself as cheapening marriage, I do think a lot of people have a bad habit of confusing infatuation for romantic love and are quick to get married without understanding the full ramifications of the commitment marriage is supposed to represent. Probably doesn't help that there is still a wide spread belief that, if pregnancy occurs out of wedlock, getting married is automatically the best choice for the children. While I am in favor of legal recognition of a wide range of marriages(I also support polygamy and consensual incest), I do think premarital counseling should be a standard part of the procedure for obtaining a marriage license or a clergy person agreeing to conduct the ceremony for a religious marriage, if only to ensure marriage is really what the potential spouses want and that they understand what they are getting themselves into.
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Re: Gay marriage now completely legalized in the United Stat

Post by Marnex »

Yes that's exactly right, an incoherent rant. It was like 6am here at the time. Maybe I shouldn't have spent so long last night playing Torchlight 2...

Christians have been condemned by streamline Christianity for decades. Most denominations disagree with the garbage the Catholic churches have actually done in this country and the lasting power they've held. They still continue to be the biggest denomination of Christianity. You only need to be even remotely aware of history to know about all the atrocities they've done and hypocritical acts they continue to do. I still find personal reasons and virtues for being a Christian regardless.

There are many things in the Bible that were normal at the time. Incest is an example. Doesn't mean God was for it. Lot's wife died and he himself almost died because he acted like a moron.

I'm not going to touch on the pedophile and bestiality marriage thing again because I already mentioned that was just for amusement.

I agree with your points. I guess basically I just don't get the whole marriage thing and I don't find myself caring much to celebrate. Gay people could already do whatever they wanted in this country in the comfort of their own homes (having sex and freely living together what could be better? Marriage sure isn't). I personally believe that if it's love then they don't need to show it publicly, that sentiment applies to hetero marriages too.

It's not really divorce only that cheapens marriage. I only cited that as one example. It's that fact that literally any type of person can get married in any condition. You could be two drunks or high on cocaine and still get legally married. Oh you just came out of prison and shanked someone, honey? Let's get married! This is also part of the reason why I often argue against Christians about how homosexuals getting married isn't really that big of a deal when any type of person already could. I suppose what I'm really trying to say in the midst of my rambling is that marriage kinda blows.
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Re: Gay marriage now completely legalized in the United Stat

Post by Tobi »

This is really cool and all, it's a big step towards equality, but this doesn't mean discrimination turned extinct, this doesn't mean people won't look down on you or anything like that.
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Re: Gay marriage now completely legalized in the United Stat

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

Oh, I'm well aware of the major schisms Christianity has undergone over the last millennium or so, but from my perspective as an outsider, I'd say Catholicism and most protestant denominations still hold a lot of common ground when they aren't bickering about the points on which they disagree, and relaxation of sexual taboos seems to be something you only find in the more fringe groups(even things like premarital sex and cohabitation seem to still be frown upon by the majority).

As for the bible entries I reference, I can't help seeing Lot as a horrible father for offering up his virgin, and likely prepubescent, daughters to protect a couple of complete strangers, yet he was the one man deemed worthy of being spared from the massacre, and I never hear Christians condemning Lot for his actions(though at least he doesn't get as much praise for being a bad father as Abraham tends to get from believers). I also find it interesting that The Massacre of Sodom and Gomorrah tends to be gay-basher's go to Bible story, as my understadning isthat, while both cities had a very healthy what we'd call a red light district in modern times, the most common crime among the sodomites and the gomorrans was lack of hospitality towards strangers that sometimes drifted into violence. Still I find it interesting how many modern-day Christians have condemned atrocious acts deemed acceptable or even righteous in Bibical days yet continue to condemn some harmless acts that were condemned in biblical days.

For the record, I was driven away from Christianity before I ever learned of any of the Abrahamic religions' collective dirty laundry(both in modern and Biblical times), though the more I learn, the more I tend tothink I made the right decision in rejecting all Churches.

Religious commentary aside, I agree whole heartedly, that provided you fall into one of the groups for which the government recognizes marriages(at this point, pretty much any two people who are of legal age and further apart then first cousins in blood relation), getting a marriage license is too easy. As for benefits of legal marriage, probably the biggest one that is difficult to replicate through other forms of legal contract is the fact that a legally recognized spouse is legally recognized as family whereas a cohabitating significant other is not, and there are a lot of legal things where the distinction between family and non-family is very important, though granted, many of them are things you'd only be aware of if they applied to your situation. Though there are also downsides to a legal marriage(for example, if two people both qualify for SSI or Disability, they can draw significantly more benefits as a cohabiting couple than as a married couple, and even if only one draws SSI while the other works, marriage can still result in a significant cut to the spouse recieving SSi's check. Honestly, I doubt if many of the cohabiting homosexuals who have a personal marriage and desire a legal marriage have actually thought through all of the pros and cons that such a change in their legal standing would entell, though I imagine many have given it more thought than the masses of straight couples who see marriage as something couples do as a matter of course.
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Re: Gay marriage now completely legalized in the United Stat

Post by Drouge »

Marnex wrote:I guess marriage is the only thing that somewhat bothers me because in my belief God was the one that instituted marriage between a man and a woman. Besides, I also see marriage as something silly and something that doesn't hold much meaning anymore because humans have diluted it (just look at divorce rates) and I don't understand why it was number one priority for gays. They could already f*** and live in the same house and practically be "married" already?
The rest of your post has been touched on but I'd like to address this paragraph. Apologies if I sound like I'm harassing you specifically, because I am honestly so tired of hearing these arguments and my tone has gone from "polite yet firm" to straight up "firm" which people tend to view as inflammatory when it's presenting an opposing opinion.
Marnex wrote:I guess marriage is the only thing that somewhat bothers me because in my belief God was the one that instituted marriage between a man and a woman.
With all due respect? No, he didn't. Marriage, yes, even between just men and women, has been around since before monotheism was even a glimmer in a priest's eyes, and existed in cultures completely cut off from the Abrahamic religions entirely. The pre-Columbian American natives, in just about, if not ALL of their countries and empires had marriage. the Abrahamic God does not have a stranglehold on the definition of marriage, and even if he did, America does not have an official national religion, making him a moot point in the eyes of the law anyway.
Marnex wrote:I also see marriage as something silly and something that doesn't hold much meaning anymore because humans have diluted it (just look at divorce rates) and I don't understand why it was number one priority for gays.
Setting aside your own personal hangups on marriage, there are a number of legal benefits offered to married couples. Hospital visitation, next-of-kin status, tax benefits, job-related benefit sharing (such as insurance plans, etc) only available to family members, which unmarried couples are not in the eyes of the law. Civil unions do not provide all of these benefits, especially non-governmental ones, and have the distinct air of segregation. "Seperate but Equal" is still separate and therefore unequal.
Plus, and this is a social aspect, marriage is the most visible symbol of love-related equality. Sure you can be "effectively" married, but others won't see it that way.

Here's where I stop being firm and start being angry.
Marnex wrote:They could already f*** and live in the same house and practically be "married" already?
Hey, thanks for reducing any and all same-sex relationships to nothing but boning and living together! It's not like there's anything else involved in being in love, nope. Just sex. That's totally why we wanted equal rights, you know. So we could do things we could already legally do.
And, exiting sarcasm mode, what a couple does is quite frankly none of your damn business. Physical intimacy is absolutely not required for a loving relationship at all.

And, to everyone, calling it gay marriage may roll off the tongue, but it ignored bisexual and other people in same-sex relationships that aren't gay. Like me, for instance. It doesn't matter too much in the grand scheme of things, but while I'm irate I may as well point that out.
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Re: Gay marriage now completely legalized in the United Stat

Post by Marnex »

Drouge wrote: With all due respect? No, he didn't. Marriage, yes, even between just men and women, has been around since before monotheism was even a glimmer in a priest's eyes, and existed in cultures completely cut off from the Abrahamic religions entirely. The pre-Columbian American natives, in just about, if not ALL of their countries and empires had marriage. the Abrahamic God does not have a stranglehold on the definition of marriage, and even if he did, America does not have an official national religion, making him a moot point in the eyes of the law anyway.
Well, I don't really understand the purpose of the history lesson. Yes, of course marriage was around before monotheism. I'm referring to Genesis and the creation of the Earth. God established marriage and the concept of husband and wife with Adam and Eve. If you don't believe that it's fine, but that's what I was referring to. And I agree, America does not have an official religion. I've always argued against the notion that America has ever been a Christian nation like so many love to argue.

Drouge wrote: Setting aside your own personal hangups on marriage, there are a number of legal benefits offered to married couples. Hospital visitation, next-of-kin status, tax benefits, job-related benefit sharing (such as insurance plans, etc) only available to family members, which unmarried couples are not in the eyes of the law. Civil unions do not provide all of these benefits, especially non-governmental ones, and have the distinct air of segregation. "Seperate but Equal" is still separate and therefore unequal.
Plus, and this is a social aspect, marriage is the most visible symbol of love-related equality. Sure you can be "effectively" married, but others won't see it that way.
Yes, I understand all of those benefits. On the other hand, there are many negative effects as well. High divorce rates prove this. I agree there are benefits, it's just my personal vendetta against it. The negatives outweigh the positives in my eyes. However, that doesn't mean I'm totally against the idea of marriage. My girlfriend tells me all the time that she would want to get married some day and if we ever reached that point in our relationship I suppose I wouldn't deny her marriage because, well, I don't want to see her cry. I still find marriage a waste of time. I already listed my reasons why humans have diluted and cheapened the act of marriage to the point where it just doesn't have much meaning anymore and the act certainly should not validate the love between two people.

Look, let me just sum up my position on marriage like this: I could not care less about the materialistic legal benefits of marriage nor do I wish to seek out the social approval of my love towards anyone. I love who I want. As long as I can have that in the privacy of my life and the comfort of my home that is what fundamentally matters.
Drouge wrote: Hey, thanks for reducing any and all same-sex relationships to nothing but boning and living together! It's not like there's anything else involved in being in love, nope. Just sex. That's totally why we wanted equal rights, you know. So we could do things we could already legally do.
And, exiting sarcasm mode, what a couple does is quite frankly none of your damn business. Physical intimacy is absolutely not required for a loving relationship at all..
Woah woah. When did I specify that sentiment towards only same sex marriage? My entire argument has been double sided. No. On the contrary, that statement applies to heterosexual relationships as well. Of course there are more elements to love than sex and living together! I never said otherwise and I wasn't going to list them all. If it makes my silly sentence clearer for what I meant, simply replace "sex/f***" with "be in love". I'd be perfectly happy in a world where anyone can only be in a relationship where they love each other and live together and that's it. No marriage or legal contracts or archaic rituals ever getting involved, just two people in love.
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Re: Gay marriage now completely legalized in the United Stat

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

In addition to the fact that most, if not all, human cultures have independently developed an analogue to marriage, I think it worth noting that humans aren't the only species whose mating rituals, and yes, when you cut through all the ********, marriage is at its most primal level a mating ritual, include public displays to declare "this is my mate, no one else is to touch them. This is my mate, no one else shall lead me astray.".
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Re: Gay marriage now completely legalized in the United Stat

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