From what I see, the problem is that fewer younger people in the UK tend to vote on the day. This has been a problem for years that has been a defining factor in votes such as the Scottish Independence referendum and the 2015 General Election.
(Granted, this isn't totally reliable data but younger areas were shown to have less turnout from what I've read on there.)
All I've been seeing lately is remainers bullying leavers and it's really annoying. Jesus Christ, they ticked a different box in a vote. Furthermore, they both had their people: The leavers had Farage, the remainers had David Cameron and his chums.
If the leavers screwed up, they screwed up. If Britain does go down the toilet by the end of all this you can rub it in the faces of all the leavers you want, but this is pretty much a fallout phase we're going through right now and it's way too early to draw any strong conclusions yet.
PS:
Batty wrote:you mean right wing lunatics wreck the economy with anti-intellectualism and transform domestic policy into racism and xenophobia in the UK too?! pff, that's almost like saying "right wing populism" is a polite way of saying fascism in it's infancy ... oh
oh well i guess, the old people will die eventually, maybe there's still hope?
Don't cry about discrimination and then wish death to old people just so you can sweep them under the rug and get the result you wanted.
that's a false equivalence though, because one is actually punching down on people and incites some people to violence (i.e. immigrants) and one is a social critique about how prone the elderly is to be less aware of the consequences of their actions and just how privileged life was to our parents generation who will leave us a wrecked economy not only here in the US, but apparently those in the uk too.
and there isn't anything to wish really bc like ... the older generation passing is an eventuality and it's a common theme in political history that that event is sought after when things go awry, and enough time will pass to know by then if the decision should be altered if it isn't before then, after the all but guaranteed financial consequences occur
also i don't really have great automatic empathy so not only couldn't i cry about something but idk, complaining about old people isn't something i feel guilt about :c
Last edited by Lamby on Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Oh baby won't you stop it/you and I haven't got it
Television romance "
also i don't really have great automatic empathy so not only couldn't i cry about something but idk, complaining about old people isn't something i feel guilt about :c
Spoiler:
Then get out, sweetie. c:
You're saying the eldery are ignorant here when they're the ones that voted for Britain to enter the EU (Well, back then it wasn't called the EU) in the first place.
You've got no place in here if you're clearly arguing against discrimination for the groups you like and then admitting you don't give a flying **** about the groups who thought differently in a referendum.
Last edited by Mamkute on Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Please censor all of a bad word.
idk, i don't really have more to add, because i don't believe all opinions are valid, especially one motivated by misinformation and poor understanding of economics, and if i was a citizen i'd be perfectly okay with not leaving such a critical decision to simple majority referendum. also it doesn't really effect me bc i don't live in the uk so i dunno, not super concerned to an extent actual people it effects do, just disappointed enough people actually entertained leaving because wow i thought only we americans did goofball risky brash things like that
otherwise good luck, really hope your centrist mantra of "let's see what happens" works out for you, honest
Last edited by Lamby on Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
"Oh baby won't you stop it/you and I haven't got it
Television romance "
Accusing half of your country of racism, calling them idiots, and ignoring anything they say because and letting the media run with these headlines as it turns out is going to make people very much against anything you try and tell them because disagreement will lead to a barrage of groundless baseless insults.
Calling people racist for everything they do will eventually make them stop caring about what might seem racist and start caring more about what can improve their country.
Now with more countries calling for an exit from the EU, we can hope they won't be able to enforce their plans to punish the UK for the brexit like they promised.
Edit: Also Flame, I'd like to point out that your country is actually not going down the drain and all the fear mongering people are committing over stocks...is just that
Last edited by Goat on Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
Fox Boy wrote:Can we just remove the vote and let a king rule over us again? That went well if I remember right.
Maybe I should let Chao Island vote for stuff in the future...
Chao Island Twitch Channel for Chao streaming!: https://twitch.tv/ChaoIsland/ I have dragons as my servants and I have almighty powers.
JmTsHaW:(list of CI users, as Sonic Battle characters) Chaos - Mooncow (He barely appears, Chaos also barely appears.) (00:45:53) xninjy: ur not old mooncow. old is 50 or 45.
Mooncow wrote:Maybe I should let Chao Island vote for stuff in the future...
Vote on what, even if we got a chatbox back we could always just use an official discord to save time on coding and have something that outperforms the old chatbox.
Regarding lower voter turnout among the younger generation, I have to ask: how many years do Brits spend telling their youths their opinions don't count? Here in the states, we do it for 18 years, and the vast majority of 18, 19, and 20-something year-olds believe their opinion still doesn't count as a result. Granted, there's not much effort towards undoing the damage, but many Americans are rather gun ho about inflicting this damage in the first place, and there's no reason to suspect Brits would be anymore reserved in inflict such damage or anymore active in reversing it.
My thinly veiled hatred of the voting age aside, while I wholeheartedly agree with the UK's right to succeed from the EU, I'm not convinced it was the best decision, either for the UK itself, or for the world at large. There are many issues with the status quo, but the UK voters might have just detonated a nuclear bomb in the Status quo's face when surgical application of a scalpel would've been more appropriate.
It's too early to tell, and I don't know what the results of the last Scottish Independence referendum were, but my understanding is that most of the Leave votes came from England and Wales with Scotland and North Ireland voting to remain. This could potentially be the straw that breaks the camel's back leading to a break-up of the UK, a Sovereign Scotland joining the EU and the reunification of Ireland. These might all be good things in the long run for the peoples of the British Isles, but these are all things that could prolong upheaval and it's hard to predict where things will lie when a new status quo is achieved.
Spreading out, the UK was one of the biggest players in the EU and this sets a precedent for other countries to withdrawal. Individually, some nations might be better off leaving(I've heard most of the EU's efforts to help the Greek Depression have only made it worse, for example), but for all the EU's faults, it does a lot to oil the gears of international commerce and community in that part of the world, and is a major player on the world stage. Destabilization of the EU or its total collapse is more likely than not to have global impact.
Also one degree of separation from ground Zero are the Commonwealth Realms, though I'll admit that I don't know how tight their ties to the UK itself is.
As a US Citizen, I'm at least two degrees separated from this event, but I can't help feeling that it's not a question of if the ripples from this event reach me, but when will they reach me and how will they affect me, and as hard as it is to predict what will happen to the UK, it's far harder to predict how it will affect the wider world.
Also, anyone surprised that a house of cards built by politicians and the mainstream media on a lack of integrity is now falling apart arguably has unhealthy levels of naivete. As for the calls for a revote, I'm a bit torn. On the one hand, a lot of dishonesty has been unveiled in recent days, which could've changed many minds. On the other hand, people who believed the lies and voted against what they now think is their best interest were stupid for blindly trusting politicians and the media, and I don't believe in protecting people from their own stupidity. Personally, I kind of lean towards letting the vote stand as is, trying to make informed decisions when it comes to replacing the people resigning from elected offices in the wake of the results with people who might do a good job leading the UK through the coming upheaval, and maybe making a referendum to re-enter the EU a standard part of the UK general elections once the dust clears.
And while Batty might not be as eloquent as she once was, I don't think her comment on the elderly was meant to be quite as harsh as some have taken it. The simple fact is, the older we get, the harder it becomes to learn new things and the harder it becomes to change one's mind when presented with new information. To make matters worse, for every elder who gracefully bows out of a position of authority and steps back to let the younger generation lead the way into a future youths are better able to adapt to, there are a dozen elders who hold tight to authority and insist on upholding the old ways regardless of whether they make sense in the present. At the same time, for every youth capable of recognizing the wisdom of their elders and taking it in advisement, there are a dozen youths who would ignore the lessons of the older generation and take power through open rebellion. In an ideal world, there would be greater synergy between the wisdom of the elderly and the adaptiveness of the young, between tradition and progress, but as long as we maintain a status quo of generational conflict, I fear we will continue to see social progress at a slow march that proceeds mainly through older ideals fading as each generation dies of old age.
Actually, you'll find that it's more than just the older demographics telling each other their votes don't matter. Now, you don't have to agree it was the best decision. People, just have to accept it don't they? They lost and some want a do-over, but it doesn't look like that's actually going to happen as neither the EU or anyone important enough in the UK is stupid enough to overrule a democratic decision without sparking a riot. Surgical application is impossible, I'll be the first one to say that people who voted for this and our opponents don't care about our opinions and treated us as jokes until this vote came. Now they're outright terrified, kicking and screaming about the results and have even made the old out to be their worst enemy.
Scotland voted to stay in the UK, and just because Gibraltar voted to stay doesn't make the spanish attempt at co-ownership anymore valid. A breakup of the UK seems to be revenge at this point over the result and as it turns out would be something that WOULD affect your GDP. Assuming the scots and the irish actually contribute enough that is.
As for the EU, I once again say let it die. The burden they inflicted on countries that didn't want to comply with them was apparent and if people are going to ignore their demands and be threatened by the EU for refusing to comply, it makes its stage as a world player much less deserving. It will have global impact, an impact that is long overdue.
As for Batty, and other people here (Not exactly this topic alone). That is a matter of tone and respect they have all never had and never seem to have any intention of trying to fix. As for the rest, I'd like to point out that unsurprisingly a lot of ideas people have these days aren't new. To add to that, a certain popular branch of young people also have a bad habit to refuse any opinion other than their own and go as far as to attack others over it with no regards for if they're old or young.
What exactly is so bad about having a voting age? It's the only barrier we have that stops young people from making uneducated guesses on how the country should be fixed.
Goat wrote:As for the EU, I once again say let it die. The burden they inflicted on countries that didn't want to comply with them was apparent and if people are going to ignore their demands and be threatened by the EU for refusing to comply, it makes its stage as a world player much less deserving. It will have global impact, an impact that is long overdue.
Yeah, lets go back to the good ol days before the EU. More war! More foreign occupation! Make the Roman Empire Great Again!!!
Triert wrote:
I remember the old days when people would get shaped up by criticism and in turn be a better person.
i'm not terrified; most educated people rightly would still look upon the manchild revolution springing up here and in europe as a joke, that hasn't changed because they managed to motivate angry people with nationalism, bigotry, and low key fascism who days later realized "maybe a british shay's rebellion style mobocracy isn't a great idea"
i think the last time i saw something like this it was in a history book under "how did nationalists sweep europe and what influenced the rise of the axis powers during ww2"
but seriously yeah like pink, i'm afraid ultimately i'll forget in a few months when here in the US we'll be busy putting an end to republican nonsense when they lose congressional majority, at the same time, i see no reason to pretend leaving is a valid choice and is anything more than being contrary to be contrary. i just feel bad for the next generation. and older people are to blame when they punt consequences of their careless actions to the future. what is really the endgame 30-50 years from now is not a question i think leave voters were really thinking about. i doubt "this will improve things for my great grand children" motivated the turnout, but i digress, nothing i can really do so i'll leave it at that because oi, and for the uk's sake hope the experiment can be worked through effectively.
i mean unless there's actual goals, that i could take seriously
tl;dr i don't get it, my sarcastic prodding banter aside, what meaningful positives even would there be? if i can get even three longterm goals not about deregulation talking points
Last edited by Lamby on Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Oh baby won't you stop it/you and I haven't got it
Television romance "
Yeah Batty, if people sell themselves to a criminal who cheated her way through the primary over a man who wound up bowing down before her despite all the warnings he himself gave over her dishonesty and how quickly his supporters were to ignore them and side with her. I'll honestly be surprised and even now I'm wondering how a USA under Hillary will be like. Ideally I like to imagine she won't go through on her promise to reduce sentences for female criminals, she's the kind of person to switch stances on the fly if I recall. I mean, why else would she be welcomed at the NYC pride parade after years of an anti-lgbt stance and still accepts money from nations that murders gays.
Well, given the amount of people who didn't simply call for her to leave, I recognize the left isn't to be taken lightly. The election in november is where this gets formally settled once and for all anyways, if we win, don't worry too much. If your side wins, well thats voting right? But if there happens to be fraud, and given how many people are willing to commit it, the third option gets invoked and I'll see you on the other side.
As for benefits? Well, let me evoke my earlier promise of "political retribution" that people would wind up invoking. It doesn't matter what benefits you can't take seriously that someone can do their best to explain for hours and get nowhere for you. What's important now is that as much as you like to say people will have to accept the policies you support kicking and screaming. Now it's other peoples turns to accept the right wing policies kicking and screaming.
And suddenly, that sounds like fascism because now it's not a leftist saying something like that.
Edit: I have this in response.
Working class can actually benefit from deregulation when it's not a matter of deregulation that'll make The Jungle relevant again. I'll remind everyone here that the EU has a pretty insane policy on bottled water.
spoilered so if you're tired of batty and goat's usual ... heart to hearts ur free
Spoiler:
i didn't call you hitler or say his name and i wasn't like talking about you you, you're pretty tempered compared to most. fascism is a spectrum of beliefs, it doesn't require genocide or eugenics or gas chambers. there is no denying your movement's fringe elements mirrors the platform of fascist states in their infancy, specifically scapegoating immigrants, an us against them mentality, nationalism, anti-liberal and anti-socialist propaganda, deregulation, delusions of a return to glory days that never existed, anti-feminist (i mean literally anti not like today), anti-lgtb, the use of emotionally motivated rhetoric designed to manipulate people (kinda like when you try that ominous imagery like which is my favorite thing you do because it's cute and punchy like you actually humor me), encouraging or suggesting violence is necessary, and above all else is on the right side of the spectrum, so yeah it actually is unlikely someone truly progressive would be fascist, communism disguised as authoritarianism is more likely the perverted version of me so you could call me stalina or something. now saying fascist is hyperbole because in reality, it's pretty unlikely you'd actually be one, but point in using that word is to illustrate how history repeats itself even if it's not 100% the same, those concepts eerily still have the power to anger people into a storm of brash decisions
also by it's nature right wing politics is leery of liberal progress and social change
but now we're getting off topic because really this is more a US conversation and i'm sorry about that so i'll stop, i sort of just wanted to get you to like explain to me why you'd support brexit and why deglobalization is a good idea. i might poke the fire with you some because we have this political rivalry thing but hey while i'll believe it when i see it, if in a few years you can say "maybe historically my ideas have been hijacked by bad conservatives but we made it work" you can totally make fun of me and drag me. also those images were actually pretty funny, i'll give you the hitler one because we do kinda devolve into that often when it's a "your movement's crazy!" "no urs is!" point
there's a lot you could say that's basically what i said only from the other side so i'll quit giving you a hard time and not risk derailing your thread, you know me by now, i don't really have anything else. also jeffrey is a bit more on my page with what i was getting at yeah
"Oh baby won't you stop it/you and I haven't got it
Television romance "
Fox Boy wrote:What exactly is so bad about having a voting age? It's the only barrier we have that stops young people from making uneducated guesses on how the country should be fixed.
Ignoring the fact that plenty of people over the voting age make uninformed, uneducated decisions both at the polls and in their everyday lives, this quote sounds an awful lot like reasoning that was once used to bar the poor, women, and non-whites from the polls. So, I have to ask, what makes this reasoning any more valid for young people than for any previously disenfranchised group? If you're going to disenfranchise a quarter of the population on an argument of poor intelligence, why not abolish the voting age and allow anyone that can score above the 25th percentile on an IQ test to vote?
Better idea, why not just institute universal suffrage and make an effort to improve the average level of education and political awareness among the general population? This one I can actually hazard an answer at: because it's still socially acceptable to discriminate based on age, and because major party politicians know their power is largely contingent on the general population's lack of political awareness and are in a position to block most concerted efforts to improve political awareness.
And to sum up my current position regarding the 2016 Presidential election: Trump and Hilary both suck, I'm voting for Gary Johnson, and hope either Johnson or Jill Stein win the election while knowing they'll probably finish third and fourth like they did in 2012.
I can attest to the fact that people at voting age don't make informed decisions, but my own experiences will argue against your idea from the fact that I've recognized many adults influencing their children to either think or vote a certain way.
You don't have bad ideas, but you have idea's that can't stand strong against reality. Give people all the education in the world and all the opportunities they could have possibly need but that won't stop people from remaining ignorant when they feel there's nothing left to learn.
That aside, do remember that an IQ test is not a perfect measurement for intelligence. As much as you try to say now and before how oppressed the younger generations are, we have very good reasons for the decisions that need to be made against them. No matter how much you might evoke the past, I refuse to let the current cultural climate give in to an even younger generation.
That aside, part of what makes the parties powerful is how much ignorance they promote as well as how careless and apathetic the potential voting population is.
Fox Boy wrote:What exactly is so bad about having a voting age? It's the only barrier we have that stops young people from making uneducated guesses on how the country should be fixed.
Ignoring the fact that plenty of people over the voting age make uninformed, uneducated decisions both at the polls and in their everyday lives, this quote sounds an awful lot like reasoning that was once used to bar the poor, women, and non-whites from the polls. So, I have to ask, what makes this reasoning any more valid for young people than for any previously disenfranchised group? If you're going to disenfranchise a quarter of the population on an argument of poor intelligence, why not abolish the voting age and allow anyone that can score above the 25th percentile on an IQ test to vote?
Better idea, why not just institute universal suffrage and make an effort to improve the average level of education and political awareness among the general population? This one I can actually hazard an answer at: because it's still socially acceptable to discriminate based on age, and because major party politicians know their power is largely contingent on the general population's lack of political awareness and are in a position to block most concerted efforts to improve political awareness.
And to sum up my current position regarding the 2016 Presidential election: Trump and Hilary both suck, I'm voting for Gary Johnson, and hope either Johnson or Jill Stein win the election while knowing they'll probably finish third and fourth like they did in 2012.
You first paragraph, while trying to diminish what I said, really only says one thing. That we need to fix the people's understanding of politics because as of right now it's broken. Bringing on another quarter of the population, some of which can barely read or do basic math, isn't going to fix a broken system where the main issue is that people aren't getting engaged into politics like they used to. A high IQ doesn't translate into well informed on political issues, and it certainly doesn't mean they'll go out and vote. Young people already have the hardest time getting out into the polls and voting, I can't imagine 12 year old Suzy walking out to the polls come election day and voting for something that her parents haven't already told her to vote for.
So yes, I understand that you agree with me when it comes to bettering the nation's political understanding of what's going on around them, but I must say that universal suffrage isn't going to do anything to help that. You seem to forget that children are children. They're immature and most of them care less about Clinton vs Trump than most 18-29 year olds. You also seem to forget that these children have parents, and it's a well known fact that most children are super duper likely to fall into their parents political point of view. Before they leave the house and become independent (usually around the voting age) and develop their own political beliefs there's a moment where they're basically absorbing their parents points of view and following them. That's not giving us more educated voters, that's giving us more ignorant voters who piggyback off their parents.
The only way I could see the voting age being removed is if we completely redid the educational system and found a way to stop parents from forcing their political views on their children, both of which would require years upon years of work and money.
I'll admit universal suffrage alone doesn't do much to address more fundamental issues with our electoral process, but I still find the idea more palatable than a quarter of the population being disenfranchised over a arbitrarily placed age line, especially when there's evidence that disenfranchisement of youths feeds into voter apathy among the youngest who are on the right side of that line. If being eligible to vote was based on more merit-based criteria, such as requireing a high school diploma, being legally emancipated, or passing the same tests foreign nationals have to take to gain US Citizenship, i would probably not be so bothered, even if it meant a larger portion of the population was barred from voting.
Also, for what it's worth, I'm in favor of abolishing all age restrictions, not just the voting age, though I'll admit voting isn't even the hardest age restricted aspect of modern society to determine a better boundary condition between privileged and unprivileged groups, but I won't go into further detail on that as this thread has been derailed enough.