CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

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CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Sable »

WHY CRTS ARE ****ING SUPERIOR: (from NeoGAF)
Standard definition NTSC video is 720x480 pixels at 60 interlaced fields (not frames) per second. When viewing 480i content on an interlaced display, the picture is displayed and updated somewhat like this. The picture is divided into two fields: one for the odd numbered lines and one for the even numbered lines. The TV refreshes the odd field at one moment, then the even field 1/60th of a second later, and then alternates back and forth. This is how SD video content and displays generally operate.

Classic video game consoles work slightly differently. Generally, their graphics hardware wasn't robust enough to utilize a full 480 resolution at once, so most of them output 240p video instead of 480i (usually), like so. This only uses one field, but it's still updated at the same 60hz rate as normal SD video. The other field is left blank, creating what are often referred to as scanlines.

That's fine on old TVs that are interlaced by nature, but this stuff can lead to problems when we're using progressive scan equipment, which basically includes every consumer flatpanel TV and monitor. Progressive TVs process an entire frame at once instead of alternating fields. This means that 480i60 video is basically fed into the TV like this.

Modern TVs tend to have a built-in deinterlacing process to account for this by splitting the fields apart and doubling their resolution before they're even displayed, producing something that ideally looks a little more like this. Unfortunately, this has some drawbacks. The picture quality isn't always great due to the guesswork involved in resolving the two fields, and it takes time for a TV to apply all of that processing to the image before it gets displayed. This can result in a very significant amount of input lag. (And perhaps contrary to popular belief, it is this deinterlacing process, and not upscaling per se, that often accounts for a lot of extra input lag when playing retro video game consoles. Upscaling lag is also a concern of course, and that also can vary significantly between TV sets, but you can often eliminate a significant chunk of lag by making sure that you feed the TV a progressive signal in the first place instead of forcing it to handle an interlaced one. If you're in the market for a new HDTV and want to make sure that it has low input lag in general, check out sites like displaylag.com.)

The other major drawback is that a lot of modern TVs have no way to distinguish between 240p and 480i content! They assume that 240p consoles are actually sending a 480i signal, so they'll still go through all of this deinterlacing junk and add extra processing to the signal that doesn't have to happen! Some TVs can correctly identify 240p content, but many can't do it at all.

Finally, most HDTVs are just bad at upscaling a 240p image to their native resolution. Between a lot of questionable post-processing that you may or may not be able to turn off and internal scalers that just aren't built with an eye for pixel art, you're usually going to get something that looks bad or worse if you plug an SD video game console straight into an HDTV.
GOOD PHOTOS: (NTSC-J Saturn over composite on Sony Trinitron KV32FS120)

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DISCUSS
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Speeps »

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M'Saturn, modern tech has no place in a world where I can achieve a somewhat decent image on a television set from 20 years ago.
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by retrolinkx »

^

You know you could just ****post on /vr/ if you really wanted a result.

As for CRT's. I did have a phase where I wanted a nice one, since the current TV I had was pretty terrible and the colour wouldn't output correctly. These days however, I no longer have that CRT and don't play a lot of 4th gen games to truly warrent a need for a CRT.

I do enjoy them though, I wish I had a Trinitron. I heard they were used to monitor heart rates as well, and many hospitals threw them out when they got new equipment. People have found some actual heartbeat monitors that they used for vidya. It's really interesting.
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Vaporwave »

@ jmt:

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

anyway, on topic, you know how i feel about crts already sable. i have a magnavox crt, it's pretty nice or at least nice enough by my standards but it's definitely not a trinitron

my gateway crt monitor i enjoy more, but i need an hdmi to vga converter for me to be able to enjoy it with this laptop, no vga port sucks but i understand that it's the middle of the 10's and only a small amount of people would want vga support on a laptop as new as this

it's a shame of course that crts are a dying breed and it will be harder to buy them and keep them and you have to accept that they are going to fail eventually. maybe crts will be produced as a novelty item 10 or 15 years from now just in really small batches, that would be really nice at least or at least i hope that's what happens

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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by chaoadventures »

You're going to love this, trust me.

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What you're seeing now, is my normal state.

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This is a Super Saiyan.

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And this, this is what is known as a Super Saiyan that has ascended past a Super Saiyan. Or you can just call this a Super Saiyan 2.

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And this, is to go even further beyond, HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Spoiler:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA *Somebody's comment on this* AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
*Someone else* AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA *Yet another person* AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA *Random pedestrians screaming* AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAA *Stop yelling* AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA *Seriously stop yelling man* AAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5LbZexF3sg

Bottom invisible line: My "HDTV" looks better than my CRT, but Dolphin is even better because it's a direct picture.
I don't know about you but even with the 3DS quality (I lost my phone) I can see an improvement between the first 2 pictures.

The same thing happens with my N64 games, while their quality isn't high to begin with, they actually improve a bit and as far as I can tell don't gain very much input lag, if any.

I don't have any older consoles to compare though and CRTs unfortunately hurt my eyes a bit, but I still like them, even If I can possibly get a better picture.
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Sable »

for 6th gen consoles it's debatable whether you should use CRTs or HDTVs. if you have composite or S-Video i'd say to go for CRTs but if you have component it could go either way. i personally prefer CRTs because they provide a natural sort of anti-aliasing and the colors "pop" more. the wii looks incredible over component on a good CRT, especially if you force 240p for virtual console games - very nice, crisp scanlines
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by retrolinkx »

^

I see it as Gen 6 and up you should emulate.

If we're not counting emulation, the the best source for each is usually VGA on either a widescreen monitor or a monitor in 4:3. I know for a fact Dreamcast can output in VGA, and if you do have the technical knowhow I believe you can turn a RGB into a VGA, and so Xbox, PS2 and Gamecube could all potentially be played on a VGA monitor if they don't have VGA's of their own.

For the Gamecube though, don't buy Gamecube RGB cables because they're like £150 a piece, just use your Wii to play GC games and by a Wii RGB. They're like £3 a piece.

If not, RGB/Scart is usually your best. IIRC RF < Composite (Red, White, Yellow) < S-Video < Scart < Component (RGB) < VGA

Overall though, as long as you're using S-Video and up, you should be fine for CRT's.
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Crash32 »

Virtually every benefit listed here falls back on "a e s t h e t i c". A modern monitor (LCD/LED) with an emulator is always the winner unless you want that retro charm, which you can also emulate.

The only reason old consoles look better on CRT TVs is because they output at an embarrassingly low resolution (320x240) and are essentially designed for use with them. Putting a 320x240 image on a 3840x2160 display is guaranteed to look garbage.

I'm personally glad we've moved past CRTs, they had that loud frequency noise, always static-cy, lacked detail, all issues that modern displays have fixed.
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Rajikaru »

Why would I buy a CRT and a console to play games

when I can play them on my laptop, lag-free
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Tsui »

my parents want me to let go of my old tv so I can get a better one but I love it so much
except for the loud EEEEEEEEEEE while it's on anyway

I wish I had GOOD PHOTOS but please accept these instead, all dreamcast games:
Spoiler:
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Crash32 wrote:Virtually every benefit listed here falls back on "a e s t h e t i c".
it's aesthetic. in full-width characters. gosh
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Crash32 »

I don't own a tumblr keyboard, sorry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Wolf »

@Crash: XD!!

anyway, crt's are nice!
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Goat »

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i dont know what im supposed to be understanding here
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by EvilPinkamina »

CRTs are cool for Melee if you don't have Dolphin and a gaming monitor.
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Sable »

people who are saying "the only benefits are charm" - do realize that tons of games from back in the **** era were made to take advantage of their medium of presentation. there's a large chunk of games for older consoles that specifically used the weaknesses of CRT displays and analog cables to create unique visual effects without taxing their hardware excessively.

sonic 2's waterfalls in aquatic ruin look entirely different from a raw display compared to composite -
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the ghosting of the composite input creates a really nice transparency effect that's hard to replicate otherwise. the raw display, on the contrary, is very sharp and displeasing to the eyes.

nba jam used the same weakness to create a gradient in the skintones of its playable characters' portraits -
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various codemasters games for the NES used a very nice looking curtain over RF that turns to **** on raw displays:
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the sega saturn especially used it extensively - most saturn games look like GARBAGE on emulators because the saturn was incapable of true transparency. it was all faked through dithering that would turn into "transparency" over composite and s-video -

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honestly there's so many examples of this that it would be easier to list the games that don't take advantage of it in some way or another - it was still being used all the way up until the end of the 5th gen. the point stands that you're not going to get the same visual experience that the developers intended by playing on an emulator or using expensive scalers.
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by EvilPinkamina »

Personally, I was referring more to the input latency. Most of the visual issues can be fixed with a little elbow grease and modding, save for on the smaller games that don't have as active of communities.
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Sable »

yeah i was referring more to nova and crash than you in specific
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Crash32 »

It combined underpowered hardware with low res displays in order to accomplish stuff that can be faked on a modern display. There's still no benefit to using a CRT over any modern LED/LCD/OLED/whatever display. The winner is still 1080p upscale on a decent emulator. Even SEGA's official emulator copies the effect of a CRT. I can't say I've ever seen Sonic 2's waterfalls look like they do on the left, and I've always played emulated versions.

The biggest difference here is that Saturn emulation looks like garbage because the Saturn is a mess to emulate. Even the best emulators (SSF, Yabause) both have a lot of issues.
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by BlackLuigi7 »

Yeah, I agree with Crash.

There's no *real* reason to use a CRT if you have access to a computer that can emulate the game well. I can understand using CRTs for something that you can't emulate, or if you *really* want to play the game on authentic hardware, but otherwise you're literally just doing it for aesthetic. Just like people who play records, or still listen to their tape decks.
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

All graphical displays are useless as far as I'm concerned, but I do have to wonder:

Has an economical solution to the "no true black" problem caught on for large flat screens?

To elaborate, CRTs only emit light from non-black pixels. As a result, black pixels on a CRT are truly black. Most traditional flat displays aren't self-illuminated and instead have a backlight shining through a translucent display panel. Not even the black pixels on such a display fully block the backlight, so black actually appears as dark gray on such displays. OLED Displays fix this issue as, like CRTs, light is only emitted from non-black pixels, but last I heard, oled cost grew exponentially with display size and was only economical for mobile devices

The Laptop I bought last summer has a display with the "no true black" problem, but I don't know if it's a case of crappy display because I didn't care about the display or if it's just an unresolved problem in common display tech.

Have displays that are visible in both total darkness and direct sunlight become common in mobile devices?

I've done a lot of handheld gaming over the years, and while unlit screens(such as on the GBC and GBA) would obviously work best in a well-lit room or outside on a sunny day, I've noticed that, not only are self-illuminated screens best viewed in total darkness, but become impossible to see with sufficient ambient light, often to the point of being indistinguishable from off when in direct sunlight. Has this situation improved in recent years, or does one still need to shade their screen with their hand or pull a hood down over their face and device to make out the screen when outside on a sunny day?

Also, for what it's worth, I remember reading somewhere that a theoretical HD-CRT would be able to display everything from 240p to 1080p at native resolution with black bars as the only artifact. I forget the details, but I think it had something to do with CRTs lacking a discrete pixel grid and varying the width of it's beam to create pixels of any size.
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Crash32 »

Your average phone can be seen pretty clearly during the day. It varies but none are like the GBA displays.

I believe OLED displays do indeed fix the black pixel issue, and they are becoming more affordable. IIRC they're currently sitting in the price range LED TVs were occupying 5 years ago
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by KeatonLabs »

CRT's are great

You can play melee perfectly with them :DD

Oh and other older games i suppose but

Melee

IN SERIOUSNESS I've used a CRT for years. I played my gamecube and Wii's on crts, and still use the crt to play my wii u. Sometimes i do kinda wish i had an hd tv for the wii u stuff (then again i do sometimes just move it to another room) but i appreciate it, it's pretty great. Cause Melee. And I can't emulate so
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Sable »

HDTVs are definitely better for modern gaming. i have a small (i think 19 inch?) HDTV in my room for 7th and 8th gen consoles and a 36 inch CRT for everything else.
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Rajikaru »

Sable wrote:*snip*

All that's cool and all but

Can you bring a CRT onto a bus or plane and play games there like you can with a laptop
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Re: CRT APPRECIATION THREAD

Post by Pumpkinium »

can any person bring a truckload of mtn dew and doritos on a bus as well as their giant forested neck beard w/ wildlife inside

I used to have a crt TV with these giant doors on it that when u open the speakers are in the doors. it's rly big and heavy but we still have it. unfortunately I don't really have an eye for the aesthetic of a crt so im too lazy but I think ill still keep it in case someone wants that Experience. I think if I tried to use it id definitely get nostalgia bc I played all my sonic games on it in the past like sa2b and sonic heroes, etc.
help me
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