Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

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Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Zapchao »

What can I do in order to obtain a chao with grade 255 Luck and Intelligence? How can I figure out what grades my chao have?

I want to obtain a chao with these grades before I attempt raising a perfect chao. Breeding the 255 grades onto new offspring would be a nice bonus. Action Replay isn't an option.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by ChillyChao »

Yikes, i'm not good with luck and intellegence, but i'll try to help anyways.
Animals and Chaos Drives boost luck and intellegence, so just keep giving them to your Chao, and theu should be good.
As for checking, depends what version you are playing.
Dreamcast/Gamecube/Xbox360/Xbox One/Playstation 3/Playstation 4 versions
As far as i know, you can't check.
Steam version
Use Fusions Chao Editor.
Hope i helpes at least a bit.
im just saying if the glass was gone in the glass coffin scene hoffman and strahm would have been kissing
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Zapchao »

I can get 4000 stat points fairly easily. I'm concerned about the grade, because apparently when the stats are maxed out, the grade still affects a chao's luck and intelligence.

For example, a 4000 stat point 255 grade chao can open a jack-in-the-box faster than a 4000 stat point 0 grade chao. A Tails chao can show this off fairly well since it has grade 255 in luck and intelligence.

I am playing on GameCube btw.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Mamkute »

As you said, getting 4000 Intelligence/Luck is pretty easy, given how wonky the Intelligence and Luck grades are. And Luck and Intelligence grades do get passed onto children like the other grades, the hard part is just knowing what the parent grades are- where you need some sort of external help.
Zapchao wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:38 pm because apparently when the stats are maxed out, the grade still affects a chao's luck and intelligence.

For example, a 4000 stat point 255 grade chao can open a jack-in-the-box faster than a 4000 stat point 0 grade chao
Where did you hear this? I am skeptical of this claim, since it is pretty well established that stat points are the only factors that effect the chao's function in races.
You mention the Tails chao as evidence for this. Are you saying that it becomes very apparent that a Tails Chao versus a 4000 Intelligence stat Chao with, say, 100 as its grade, will open the Jack-in-the-Box substantially faster? I would be very interested in seeing this.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Zapchao »

Here is a quick video demonstrating differences in chao intelligence:

https://youtu.be/Y3LJM95Xx7o

It is helpful to know that breeding passes down the grades. If you know any percentages or how to control the grades, that would be nice.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Mamkute »

Thanks for sharing a video. That is interesting, and quite a big difference, too.

And no, I don't know percentages on luck/intelligence grades, or of any way to control them. Sorry about that.

I know when purchasing chao, the 5 normal grades are a normal distribution centered at C grade. I wonder if Luck/Intelligence are both normal centered at 128-ish, or if they are a more constant distribution.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by azureprism »

Mamkute wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 12:00 am I know when purchasing chao, the 5 normal grades are a normal distribution centered at C grade. I wonder if Luck/Intelligence are both normal centered at 128-ish, or if they are a more constant distribution.
If you monitored a Chao with a low luck/intelligence grade on Chao Editor and took note of its stat gains when levelling up, it might give some insight.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Zapchao »

Do you think the low Intelligence/Luck grades are giving very poor stat point gains? I don't know how the stats increase on level up so it's possible.

However, since all chao in the video linked above have level 99 in all stats barring Stamina, that means I gave each of them 583 animals minimum. How much more do I need to give them? Is there a level up cap like the visible stats?

For this next part, let's assume Intelligence/Luck grades do matter.

Do you know anyone who is able to and willing to check the Intelligence/Luck grades of the default chao eggs in SA2 and SADX, including the Silver, Gold, and Black eggs? I would do this myself, but I don't own an Action Replay. I'm not even sure if it can check grades.

I want to know if the grades are fixed or randomized. Knowing some grades from the market eggs in all chao games would be nice also.

The last thing I'd want to do is gather frame data. However, it might be necessary anyway to check for grades without a hacking device.

Hopefully, there are others that might be interested in researching this. It could help in creating a true perfect chao.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

To nitpick Mamkute's statement about stat grade distribution, since we're talking discrete values, it is a binomial distribution, the normal distribution being the continuous counterpart, but yeah, knowing that standard grades have something other than a flat distribution does make me wonder how the grades of hidden stats are distributed. I half expect them to still be every grade has a 1/256 chance, but I could be wrong.

As for how to check hidden grades, aside from Fusion's editor on PC versions, our best bet would probably be running the Gamecube games in Dolphin or the Dreamcast originals in whatever is currently considered the best Dreamcast Emulator. As far as I know, Action Replay and its ilk only allow for overwriting memory values with user defined values, but what we need is a way of reading memory values or reading Chao data from save files. I don't know if Dolphin has built-in memory viewing features, but even if it doesn't, I'm sure there are generic memory viewers that can take a look at the RAM Dolphin is using. A hacked Wii might also be useful here, but I suspect that might be harder to setup for anyone who hasn't already got a hacked Wii.

Still, yet another reason to wish someone was knowledgeable/crazy enough to disassemble one of the games with Chao Raising so we could examine hte code directly.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by azureprism »

Zapchao wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 5:45 am Do you know anyone who is able to and willing to check the Intelligence/Luck grades of the default chao eggs in SA2 and SADX, including the Silver, Gold, and Black eggs? I would do this myself, but I don't own an Action Replay. I'm not even sure if it can check grades.
IIRC one of my original Station Square Chao on SADXPC has a really bad intelligence or luck grade.
Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 11:42 am As for how to check hidden grades, aside from Fusion's editor on PC versions, our best bet would probably be running the Gamecube games in Dolphin or the Dreamcast originals in whatever is currently considered the best Dreamcast Emulator.
I don't think grades, levels and exp existed in the Dreamcast versions - it was just the flat 0 to 999 points.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Mamkute »

Zapchao wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 5:45 am Do you think the low Intelligence/Luck grades are giving very poor stat point gains? I don't know how the stats increase on level up so it's possible.
Luck and intelligence follow the same level up formula as the other stats. That formula is:

Points = (Grade x 3) + 13 ± 2

It is rather ridiculous that it uses the same formula, because having a 255 grade in either stat means one level up grants 778 (±2) points. Which is insane.
Zapchao wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 5:45 amHowever, since all chao in the video linked above have level 99 in all stats barring Stamina, that means I gave each of them 583 animals minimum. How much more do I need to give them? Is there a level up cap like the visible stats?
Luck and intelligence have the same level cap of 99, and a point cap of 4,000. 583 animals should be more than enough to bring a chao to its level cap. That is the weird thing with luck and intelligence levels- it is super easy to get it capped. Out of 255 grades, just about anything higher than grade 10 should cap luck/intelligence by level 99.
Zapchao wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 5:45 am Do you know anyone who is able to and willing to check the Intelligence/Luck grades of the default chao eggs in SA2 and SADX, including the Silver, Gold, and Black eggs? I would do this myself, but I don't own an Action Replay. I'm not even sure if it can check grades.
The default eggs in SA2 and SADX are randomized like other eggs which you acquire. I don't know about direct grade checking technology (probably exists) but I know people can check luck/intelligence stats, and so checking before and after a level up can give a pretty good guess to the grade.

Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: Tue May 01, 2018 11:42 am To nitpick Mamkute's statement about stat grade distribution, since we're talking discrete values, it is a binomial distribution, the normal distribution being the continuous counterpart, but yeah, knowing that standard grades have something other than a flat distribution does make me wonder how the grades of hidden stats are distributed. I half expect them to still be every grade has a 1/256 chance, but I could be wrong.
Thanks for nitpicking my math terms. I have never actually taken a stats class (although I probably should have) and mostly just know what I do through other math. And I agree, I would also be inclined to guess that for the hidden stats the grades have a flat distribution. But that I have nothing to back that up.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Zapchao »

With my vast resources, I have acquired an army.

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I can't keep breeding the bad Intelligence/Luck genes, you know? Give me a couple of weeks to raise these chao to have all S stats. I will then raise their stat points to all be about 2700-2800 and race them. We shall see how much their Intelligence/Luck varies.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Mamkute »

Here's a pretty oddly specific piece of info about the intelligence stat:

An intelligence stat of 1666 opens up the jack-in-the-box at around 5.7 seconds. I am eventually going to do some more testing on jack-in-the-box opening rates, but that is the only thing I have now.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Mindacos »

Another fun fact: In chao races, the absolute highest intelligence stat a chao can have is 4983, which is only possible by hacking, as the maximum intelligence stat a chao can get is 4000.

At 4983, a chao can open the box pretty much instantly, their emotion ball never becomes a question mark. If the chao has a stat of 4984 or higher, they will essentially soft-lock themselves in a negative value, which leads to them never opening the box no matter how long you wait.

I made a gif which shows these grades in action, 4977 to 4984: https://i.gyazo.com/ab078448be0f04e4965 ... 8d1be6.mp4
Zapchao wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:16 pm Here is a quick video demonstrating differences in chao intelligence:

https://youtu.be/Y3LJM95Xx7o

It is helpful to know that breeding passes down the grades. If you know any percentages or how to control the grades, that would be nice.
You mentioned that all chao had a 4000 stat point on intelligence, which I highly doubt since the grades does not impact anything but the actual stat gain. Assuming all the chao on your video have a max level on intelligence, it could be that their intelligence grade is really low, hitting stats of ~2000-2500 at best, and not 4000.

The same experiment with a grade of 0 and stats between 4977-4984 gives me the exact same result:
Spoiler:
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Zapchao »

Well, hopefully these 24 new chao can shed some light on this matter. I got them fresh from the market so I'm not passing down any genes. The three chao I raced against the Tails chao do come from different origins though. I would had to have been extremely unlucky if all their intelligence grades were 0-9. Anything grade 10-255 will always achieve 4000 points, but I haven't ruled out the possibility that none of my chao are in this category.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Zapchao »

If anyone is curious what the chao's grades are for possible statistical use, here they are:

White: BDBEC
Blue: BEDDB
Red: BBCCB
Yellow: ABDCE
Orange: DDCAE
Pink: EBCDB
Purple: CDDCD
Sky: DBBBD
Green: CBDCD
Brown: CEDBA
Grey: EBEAA
Silver: DBDBB
Gold: DCCDC
Ruby: CDABE
Sapphi: CADEB
Amethy: BCEEE
Emerald: DEBAC
Garnet: CCDDC
Aqua: CDEAB
Peridot: BCDED
Topaz: CBBCB

Also, while doing this, I realized my Lime Green, Black, and Onyx chao already have all S grades, so I decided to raise their stats between 2700-2800 and race them. Here is what happened:

https://youtu.be/AEipRjYVfd4

Can someone explain to me why all three chao have terrible intelligence grades? I can't believe that this is coincidential anymore. I imagine there might be something manipulating the RNG.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by UltimaNumber »

Getting good Intelligence and Luck grades are really weird. Usually the best way to get them is from the Tiny Chao Garden. I've at least had better success there than getting eggs anywhere else. Getting new Normal Chao in the beginning of your Chao Raising Adventures are also a good likelihood. I think the game distributes grades differently with every method of getting eggs. Like in the Black Market you won't get better grades than 5, while in the TCG you can get absurdly high grades more common then you'd think. First Chao Eggs have also been seen with insane Intelligence and Luck Grades.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Zapchao »

UltimaNumber255 wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 3:36 am Getting good Intelligence and Luck grades are really weird. Usually the best way to get them is from the Tiny Chao Garden. I've at least had better success there than getting eggs anywhere else. Getting new Normal Chao in the beginning of your Chao Raising Adventures are also a good likelihood. I think the game distributes grades differently with every method of getting eggs. Like in the Black Market you won't get better grades than 5, while in the TCG you can get absurdly high grades more common then you'd think. First Chao Eggs have also been seen with insane Intelligence and Luck Grades.
Hmm, in my experience, I believe part of what you say. This is the result of my second intelligence race:

1st: Tails
2nd: Black
3rd: Onyx
4th: Lime

The Black Market and Tiny Chao Garden Market, at least in my experience, don't differ in Intelligence/Luck grades from each other (unless you want to explain why the jewel chao is placed between the two shiny colored chao). I'm starting to believe that most Intelligence/Luck grades are 0-5. If 6+ is possible, it isn't clear to me. Maybe 6+ is rare but at least possible in the Tiny Chao Garden Market?

Luckily, I have three normal chao who originated there (Sonic Advance 1+2, Pinball) that I've raised to have all S grades. Get ready for test #3.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by UltimaNumber »

I'd really say that the grade of 5 and above all have equal chances, but all of them combined have the same chance as an S rank, if that makes any sense. At least from what I've seen. Having a Chao with an S rank in one stat is very rare indeed. I wonder what the exact odds are?

I do know that in the Steam version, if you first enter the garden as Sonic, then one Chao is guaranteed to have insanely high intelligence, due to the Steam version's RNG. I compared with a speedrunner who found this out, named Talon2461, and our Chao have exactly the same everything!
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Zapchao »

UltimaNumber255 wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 6:06 am I'd really say that the grade of 5 and above all have equal chances, but all of them combined have the same chance as an S rank, if that makes any sense. At least from what I've seen. Having a Chao with an S rank in one stat is very rare indeed. I wonder what the exact odds are?

I do know that in the Steam version, if you first enter the garden as Sonic, then one Chao is guaranteed to have insanely high intelligence, due to the Steam version's RNG. I compared with a speedrunner who found this out, named Talon2461, and our Chao have exactly the same everything!
I see where you're getting at. Grades 0-4 can be seen similarly to grades E-A, and stat point gain is calculated exactly the same. Grades 5+ and grade S might have equal rarity, main difference being grade S can be achieved through transformations and grades 5+ cannot.

Considering I hatched 21 eggs and none of them started with an S grade demonstrates how rare a high Intelligence/Luck grade might be. I'm curious if all seven grades have some sort of balancing. For example, could my BCEEE Amethyst chao possibly have high Intelligence/Luck? Could my CBBCB Topaz chao possibly have low Intelligence/Luck?
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Jeffery Mewtamer »

I don't know if its been confirmed, but I believe the leading hypothesis is that stat grades are binomially distributed with a mean of C. Not to get into the math, but this means C is the most common state grade, B and D are tied for second most common, A and E are tied for Fourth most common, and S is the rarest(somewhere on the order of 1-in-64 if the predicted model is true).

If the game is treating stat grades for Luck and Intelligence the same except S-ranks are being randomly applied a numerical value between 5 and 255 instead of the fixed 5 of the other stats, I'm starting to wonder if the different behavior is a glitch rather than deliberate on Sonic Team's part. Even if not, that the RNG grants insanely high luck/int grades to starter Chao upon first entering the garden for the first time while keeping things more under control with Black Market eggs definitely sounds like a glitch, especially if this is exclusive to the Steam version.

Too bad testing things on Dreamcast, Gamecube, and GBA require special equipment that not everyone can afford when pretty much anyone who can play the steam version can use the tools for hacking Chao on PC. Makes it harder than it should be to compare behavior of invisible stats across versions.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by UltimaNumber »

I will get into at least the GBA eventually, as I'm very slowly, but surely learning which bits of code are for what properties of a Chao, and in every version of the Tiny Chao Garden. Dreamcast is also a thing I will get to work on very soon.

Steam has fixed RNG, meaning that any other version can have the same results, but those have proper RNG and thus is more difficult. It is possible, and I've seen it happen in any other versions, even in let's plays where I'm sure it's not the steam version.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by Mamkute »

UltimaNumber255 wrote: Tue May 22, 2018 6:06 am I'd really say that the grade of 5 and above all have equal chances, but all of them combined have the same chance as an S rank, if that makes any sense. At least from what I've seen. Having a Chao with an S rank in one stat is very rare indeed. I wonder what the exact odds are?

I do know that in the Steam version, if you first enter the garden as Sonic, then one Chao is guaranteed to have insanely high intelligence, due to the Steam version's RNG. I compared with a speedrunner who found this out, named Talon2461, and our Chao have exactly the same everything!
Huh, that is some really interesting information, and stuff that I had not thought about before. I I also love Talon2461! 100% SA2B is a hilarious run, and speedrunning chao is especially funny (and gives new info for us!) Based on Zapchao's information, what you are saying does seem especially likely, in that higher Intelligence/Luck grades become quite rare (for some methods of obtaining chao.)
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by SappyMix »

Hey are you guys still working on this?? I am totally interested, have been reading on this website for years. Have also followed you for a while on deviantart UltimaNumber!!!

Has anyone got fusion on board?? I know its hard to look into these things. I think I saw some one who transfered their save to the PC from GC/WII Figured out the codes for different parts of the chao.. If I finds it, I can post here!!!

I will do my own research using fusions chao editor on pc but as stated above, I'm not sure how that will affect the mechanics.
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Re: Luck and Intelligence Grade Help

Post by UltimaNumber »

We are working on this still. I for one am actually documenting the exact statistics of getting certain Ability Ranks, including Intelligence and Luck.

I've actually found out quite a while ago, that all Chao that are born in the Tiny Chao Garden will 100% of the time have Rank 255 Intelligence and Luck. It doesn't matter what Chao it is and it doesn't matter what version you get it from.

As for in SA2B, your starter Chao, no matter what version of the game you have, will always have the same Ability Ranks, provided you entered Chao World with the same character. As with the alleged random Chao you can get from the Black Market, or just Chao in SADX in general, your hopes for high enough Intelligence and Luck Ranks are 248/768, or roughly 32% for each Ability. That is assuming the Chao are actually random, and follow the code we've observed.
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