Video Game Championships

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Video Game Championships

Post by chaoadventures »

Since I take it none of you really give a care about it, the VGC stands for Video Game Championships and it's only
been going on for like, the last 6 years.

And if you need some incentive to play here's some reasons why you should play VGC instead of smogon.

- It's Official.
- You get Fight Money.
- Stalling is really hard to pull off, especially with a timer.
- What's Banning? Who needs Banning?

You can read the rules here.

And you can check usage statistics here.

Also, here's a damage calculator for VGC.

Now that's out of the way, let's actually talk about some stuff.

What's everybody been using to beat Charizard-Sylveon?

The Location of 2016 World Championships will be in San Francisco, California! If you plan to attend next year, bring a coat!
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by Tobi »

Charizard Y is something I have yet to get a specific counter for, but paralyzing it and using a pokemon with wide guard usually seems to be a big deal to a Charizard Y.

For Sylveon, I'd use a Scizor with a good bullet punch to the face. Rarely any Sylveon survives it. Getting a disable on a choiced Sylveon will take it down completely.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by chaoadventures »

Wait. Paralysis is an option? Wide Guard usually stops Charizard first turn, but I've seen a lot of
Charizard using Overheat and Flamethrower so that usually stops working.

I've found Terrakion does a pretty good job against Charizard, It's faster and it learns Smack Down
which doesn't miss and bypasses Wide Guard. You can even Rock Slide if you're OK with missing every
one and a while and Wide Guards.

Against Sylveon though, I end up using some weird stuff. I think just might try using Scizor.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by Tobi »

Of course it is. I survived a Charizard Y using a Klefki and a Doublade thanks to a pre-setup light screen and a prankster thunder wave to the face. From there, Doublade could set up and destroy Charizard Y.
I honestly don't understand why people go for overheat, overheat is so much garbage unless used right. But if you didn't cripple or took it down by the time you put up a wide guard, it becomes a game of predicting. Do you think he will go for flamethrower? Will he go for another heat wave? It becomes tedious.

I have tried to build a Golduck with cloud nine against Charizard Y, but Golduck just isn't strong enough. An Altaria might do the trick if it megas after activating cloud nine.

I don't really use legendaries in general too often, specially not gen 5 ones because I'm unfamiliar with them and find them cheap to use.

If you predict a Charizard Y or Talonflame from switching in, you might also like to run a Chesnaught to bait for the switch and go for a rock tomb.


Bisharp can work too I think.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by chaoadventures »

I think the point of using Overheat is to destroy anything anytime that isn't Fire, Water or Rock, because regardless of forcing Charizard to switch out, or leaving it in to be dead weight,
Charizard is still on the field and the other Pokemon is KOed. And, if Charizard switches out then it can put Sun back up later.

But, as you said above Wide Guarding is a prediction heavy move against Charizard and the main reason
I just use Terrakion and be done with it.

Also, given the fact almost all of the teams at US Nationals used 2 legends, technically you'd be at a disadvantage by not using them and
nobody really goes around saying people are cheap unless they don't know what they're doing and they're probably trying to do some "Doubles Shenanigans" that don't
even work, so I wouldn't worry about being "cheap".

I also updated the first post with the Nugget Bridge damage calculator.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by Tobi »

I suppose that works, except that Overheat tends to miss. Way too often. I use it on my Arcanine and it misses so often that I rarely rely on it even hitting.

Well I mean running Wide Guard is not a bad option anyway. How often do you see Landorus-T with Earthquake and Rock Slide? How often do you see Earthquake and Rock Slide in general? How often do you see Charizard Y with Heat Wave? How often do you see Heatran with Heat wave? Mega Altaria, Mega Gardevoir and SYLVEON with Hyper Voice? You can shut down so much of your opponent's reliable damage output, it's insane.

I suppose so, but I'd also prefer to use IV bred pokemon than cheated legendaries. You can't tell me at least 90% of the used legendaries aren't cheated. I doubt every single VGC chump soft-reset the game until they got the perfect nature + IV spread. I doubt they would even settle with less than the perfect nature + IV spread. And cheating pokemon? I think that's cheap. It's why I didn't sign up for the online competition this month, I can't compete with my legendaries against perfect nature + IVs legendaries, I won't stand a chance.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by chaoadventures »

Tobi wrote:I suppose that works, except that Overheat tends to miss. Way too often. I use it on my Arcanine and it misses so often that I rarely rely on it even hitting.
That. That right there is why I don't actually use any moves that miss anymore. And the main reason my Terrakion has Smack Down.

I have no doubt Wide Guard is good, just not as good against Charizard. Or random Hyper Beam Sylveon.

Most of the legendaries are probably Power Saved, but when playing you have two options:

1. Hack for the legends.
2. Soft-reset for perfect or near-perfect Pokemon for a potentially infinite time.

Personally, I use number 2, since they changed the way legendaries generate IVs but,
I have to perfect my teams on Showdown and most of them never get off the drawing board so I haven't started resetting yet.

Fortunately, it's okay to use imperfect Pokemon as long as they still work in Damage Calculations, most of the time people usually end up using the same legendary with the same nature
so it's not that bad. And according to Amazon, Power Saves were released in March, so everyone at Regionals in January and February during VGC 2014 had completely legit
Pokemon, I don't think Pokebank even worked yet.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by Tobi »

I suppose that is an option if you've not already caught them XD Oh well.

I do have this Suicune with Timid nature that has a perfect speed IV and I think the other 2-3 in defensive stats, so I am happy with that and can actually use it properly.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by MetroidOtherkin »

PACHIRISU or bust. :sway: :sway: :cool: :darkcool: :herowalk: :blink:
I am a PROUD Metroidkin. Met/mets/metself pronouns only.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by chaoadventures »

But, there's Togekiss.
And Clefable.
And Friend Guard Eviolite Clefairy.
And that was last year...
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by Tobi »

You forgot Jellicent.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by chaoadventures »

Jellicent doesn't get Follow Me. Or anything good for a support Pokemon for that matter, especially one that slow.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by Tobi »

Didn't really see follow me mentioned, but Jellicent is another pokemon that someone used in the championships and actually won or got far.

And with far I mean finale, I also saw someone use stuff like lapras and staraptor on the same team and he lost in the top 8.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by chaoadventures »

All the Pokemon I mentioned learned Follow Me, and the only good reason to use Pachirisu is Follow Me, so I just said a bunch Pokemon that do that job better.
I saw that Jellicent's set, and I didn't get the point of it.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by Tobi »

I know they learn Follow Me, but idk, they all learn Protect as well for example?

I personally ran Jellicent back when we ran a monotype tournament here, and I loved using it. The point is that you can use so many more pokemon than the meta provides to win.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by chaoadventures »

And my point was, Pachirisu is bad, Togekiss and Clefairy are good. But, overall Togekiss and Clefairy are support Pokemon, Jellicent is a Pokemon with base stats that look like support Pokemon's.
(It does get Trick Room though.)

I also know unorthodox Pokemon can do well, I've used some really weird stuff.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by Tobi »

Idk man surviving a Draco Meteor from a Salamence is pretty neat. The electric rodents always fascinated me because they can use Nuzzle, which is SUCH A GREAT MOVE.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by chaoadventures »

Eh. A "Great" move isn't that great when nothing that can use it well gets it. Just take Water Spout for example, all the Pokemon with Water Spout have a really hard time using it,
but then Kyogre just uses it like every other move and wins with it. You can use it, it probably just won't get very far.

But, if I want something to just use Follow Me then, why the heck am I using Pachirisu?
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by Tobi »

Because Pachirisu has tank potential (as proven, it can tank a draco meteor from a frikkin Salamence), it can absorb electric moves including thunder wave, it gets nuzzle and it also gets super fang.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by chaoadventures »

Thing is, Togekiss does has better stats and can also take Draco Meteor for 0 damage which allows it to use EVs and it's Nature for other things.

Now, Pachirisu has Nuzzle and Super Fang, but it doesn't have a recovery move, or allow me to Earthquake myself like Togekiss.
Also, Nuzzle isn't much of a prize to me, because if I need speed control, I use Tailwind, and if I really, REALLY need Paralysis, I can just put Mental Herb on my Togekiss and then I can use Thunder Wave.
I mean, I have Follow Me so, I'm gonna get Taunted anyways.

Clefairy is a very similar case, it still takes Draco Meteor for 0 damage, has a recovery move, and does an even better job at keeping it's ally safe with Friend Guard.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by Tobi »

Like for what? Draco meteor was just an example. So Togekiss can take on a dragon attack better, big deal. What about elecitrc moves and thunder wave that Pachirisu absorbs in change of HP? What about Ice? Rock? Poison? Steel? And Pachirisu? Well, Pachirisu can't take an Earthquake, that's it. Or Earth Power if you're up against a Heatran or Landorus-I.

It has a sitrus berry and volt absorb. That's plenty. Plus, even if you get recovery, Pachirisu has enough going for it that I wouldn't sacrifice it's moves just to get recovery. By the time I need it, Pachirisu has done what it's made for.
Oh man, my boy, let me tell you about Nuzzle... There's only 3 disadvantages Nuzzle brings: Only electric rodents learn it, you can get hit by rocky helmet and you don't get prankster priority. Advantages though? You can't get taunted, you get chipdamage to get rid of focus sashes and you can't get magic bounced (or magic coat). And tbh, I've seen more taunt, sash or magic bounce used against me than rocky helmet (specially when not counting Garchomp who can't get thunder waved anyway).
Mental herb only works once.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by chaoadventures »

It's time to end this game of charades.

By the time, Togekiss uses it's Mental Herb it's also done what it's made for: Distracting what ever used Taunt.

And Togekiss also has more immunities and resistances than Pachirisu. Ground, Dragon, Grass and Dark. While Pachirisu has an Electric Immunity and and less weaknesses
that's why another option is Clefairy. But, the point of a Pokemon using Follow Me is not to inflict status on your opponent but, to defend your ally.

That's what so great about Mental Herb Togekiss. If the Pokemon using Follow Me stops, then the Pokemon next to it becomes vulnerable, therefore ruining
the point of Follow Me, if you stop using it you have to do something worthwhile, like Tailwind. If Togekiss uses Tailwind first turn with Mental Herb it cannot be stopped,
and the Pokemon next to it can use Protect, but if something else was done and Togekiss has no Mental Herb there's no profit.

Because, if a Pokemon uses Protect it's next move becomes predictable, and Togekiss can't use Follow me. So, to not waste time using Thunder Wave/Nuzzle on one
Pokemon, I am instead using Tailwind, effectively using Thunder Wave on both Pokemon, regardless of type. This is, allows my partner to threaten both opponents,
and since Togekiss has Mental Herb and Follow Me has +2 Priority it doesn't matter if I get Taunted again I just used Follow Me.

Why can't you just put this on Pachirisu? Pachirisu doesn't get Tailwind, which means it only gets to target one Pokemon, and if that Pokemon Protects and the Pokemon
next to it is, say Thundurus, then Pachirisu gets Taunted and uses it's Mental Herb. Nothing got Paralyzed, so the Pokemon next to Pachirisu, might not be fast enough to
attack the opposing team, For the rest of the match, if it is fast enough, then next turn Pachirisu is taunted and the Pokemon next to Thundurus is probably going
to be knocked out. But now, Pachirisu has no Item, so it can't heal itself and It's been taunted so it can't do anything useful.

Now you say, it can use Nuzzle, but Thundurus is unaffected, and anything you hit will be paralyzed so, what's the problem? Well, the problem is now YOUR Pokemon is
going to be Thunder Wave'd, and lemme tell you a 50% chance to not do anything is not the beeswax. But, now additionally, your attacker has halved speed and has even
more trouble hurting the opponent.

The next problem is how, everything on the field is crippled. Except Thundurus. Thundurus can now reek havoc as it pleases. What havoc? Swagger. Thunderbolt.
Hidden Power Ice.

BUT.

Pachirisu still has flaws to pick. And last time I asked you "Why am I using Pachirisu as my Follow Me Pokemon?" and l let you tell me the advantages of using Pachirisu.

And now I'll tell you what's wrong with it.

Togekiss STILL has higher defenses.

Pachirisu's ability Volt Absorb, stops healing it when the other player realizes that instead of using Thunderbolt into Follow Me they can stop and use their other 3 moves.
While you can predict switches, Togekiss also can, to even more stuff.

And lastly the thing I left out of most of my example, "Thundurus used Swagger!" "Pachirisu is Confused!" "Pachirisu hit itself in confusion!"

What does this mean in the end? Well, the end result is Pachirisu is worse than Togekiss but, Thundurus gets Swagger so, use Safeguard Whimsicott instead.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by Tobi »

It basically got a free follow me or whatever status move it was going to use, which happens all the time and isn't really THAT bad for the opponent.

Having less weaknesses is better. Let's create a situation. I got my... idk, Hitmonchan with Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunderpunch and Close Combat (not a set I'd directly use, but as I said, a situation) against a Dragonite. Dragonite has quite some resistances, he resists my fire and fight moves, and electric hits neutral. But does that help him in this situation? No, because Dragonite has a weakness to ice, 4x even, Dragonite will lose in this situation.
The thing is, as a defense, you have a selected amount of weaknesses and resistances, and your opponent can choose the best move to use out of their 4 moves. If they have 4 attacking moves, it's either poorly build for coverage, or has at LEAST a move that will hit your pokemon neutrally. It's unlikely a pokemon will run a ground, dragon, grass and dark type move on a single pokemon. Specially when facing a Togekiss.
What I will give you is that Togekiss is a nice switch-in pokemon because of the 2 immunities. Then again, you can predict a switch-in.

If you're spamming follow me, you're using it wrong. An opponent might be willing to use super effective moves so they hit your follow me pokemon, in which case you can protect. Your pokemon in protection might be using protect, so you can throw out a paralyze or some damage on something the other can't really damage too much. Sure, nuzzle only slows down one opponent, but the opponent will only use 4 pokemon in VGC while your Tailwind counts for 4 turns. You'd have to set it up again. Paralyzation is forever. I personally haven't seen many heal bells and aromatherapies in the meta of VGC.

Plus, paralyzing the opponent doesn't just slow them, it prevents them from throwing out moves 25% (you said 50%, but I'm just gonna assume you're just very unlucky like I am when paralyzed) of the time as well. This could be a win condition in the end as well. And you're wrong, because Pachirisu doesn't just run nuzzle, it also runs super fang. Pachirisu won't get any faints, but it damn sure will bring the opponent down enough for his partner to deal the finishing blow.

First of all, Thundurus isn't the only opponent on the field. Second of all, it takes just about that long for Togekiss to be fully taunted without an effective way of damaging the opponent or blocking the paralyzation.

Thundurus using Swagger is... not really a reason why Pachirisu is a bad choice?? It actually does more damage to Togekiss, slightly. I have news for you buddy, Togekiss can get paralyzed, which Pachirisu can't. Togekiss can get confused as well, so while Pachirisu is struggling to take down half of Thundurus's health until it throws out a hit, Togekiss is struggling even MORE to even do anything that will only redirect a thunderbolt into their own face, if it still isn't taunted from the mental herb yet.

You can piss on Pachirisu all you want, and I'm not trying to prove to you Pachirisu is a better choice or that Togekiss is a poor choice, I'm just trying to show you you should give Pachirisu a go, because it will be worth it. It works practically, because I mean, someone won VGC 2014 with it. Maybe it would have gone better if he didn't eat the Draco Meteor but instead caught it through immunity, but maybe the opponent wouldn't even have thrown out that move because they already know what a Togekiss is gonna do in doubles: Paraflinch or redirect moves.
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by chaoadventures »

Wait, it's 25%? Heh. It is. Doesn't really matter that much to me though.
"If you're spamming follow me, you're using it wrong."

I said use something worthwhile that's not Follow Me if you don't use Follow Me.

Anyways, Paralysis affects ONE Pokemon, If my opponent is say Salamence and Thundurus, Thundurus is still out, unaffected, and both can switch out into whatever's in the back.
Like Azelf or Gengar. If I have Tailwind then ALL my Pokemon are faster then the opponent's. In addition, I can't paralyze electric types so I can't do anything when Manectric shows up.

When using status you should not even consider the opponent being affected by the secondary effects they might never happen to your opponent, which I find makes them
irrelevant when planning. On the reverse side, if I have been afflicted with status, there's a chance I lost the game DUE TO LUCK.
Therefore, all my efforts now, and should, go towards stopping luck or "Hax" (Who the came up with that name anyways?)
So, Pachirisu has Super Fang, but that doesn't matter to me when I'm Confused.

I also just want to say "Paraflinch" is non-existent, because this definitely isn't "Smogface's Stupid Singles".
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Re: Video Game Championships

Post by Tobi »

It's pretty basic knowledge though.

Yes, it affects one, and another the next turn. Tailwind might count for your entire team, but 4 turns is over very soon, especially after some protectstalls.
Manectric is not THAT common though. The only electric type I constantly see is Thundurus. Even then, Manectric can't hurt whatever partner you have.

I will consider it, I will not rely on it however. I don't ever plan around luck, unless there's no other choice. And wow, luck, that's pretty much half of what pokemon is all about. Unless you're some smogon dude, you don't really ***** about luck because it's part of the game. Even if you ban every single condition of luck that there is, there will always be crits. I've won and lost games due to crits, it's just part of the game and something you have to suck up.
So basically, running taunt :P
It does when you're taunted and/or facing tough opponents.

No, but it's a possible set people run on Togekiss. Not sure how common it is in doubles though.
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